What camera?

Use this section to discuss "standard" Baader/Coronado/ Lunt SolarView/ Daystar, etc… filters, cameras and scopes. No mods, just questions/ answers and reviews.
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Montana
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What camera?

Post by Montana » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:41 pm

I know this has probably been said a thousand times before but I have been reading about various cameras and I am more confused than ever. It is so complicated.

My question is would this be a good match for my Celestron C11 for use with H alpha and CaK?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-ca ... amera.html

It has the trusty 174 chip, high frame rate, but is the pixel size the right size (I never quite understand this)?

Also, you can get this chip in ZWO, PGR and Basler versions, does it make any difference? I don't want a camera that gives dreadful newton's rings in one version and not another. Is the noise OK? again I don't understand what figure is good or bad.

Or should I be buying something else?

Any answers and suggestions would be very gratefully received :)

Kind regards
Alexandra

PS here is a piccie of the Celestron with the Aries ERF finally fitted :hamster:
ImageFull aperture Aries ERF by Alexandra Hart, on Flickr



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Re: What camera?

Post by Merlin66 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:13 pm

Alexandra,
I use the ASI 174mm on my PST mod, SM60/ED80 and the Spectroheliograph. The camera is always used with a T2 tilter as 99% of the time there are NR generated.


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Re: What camera?

Post by bart1805 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:22 pm

Yes it is very complicated. After much reading I started with a PGR Grasshopper with the 174 chip. Yes, it gives Newton Rings when a Powermate is used. But it worked really fine. Last year I also bought the ASI290mm, one of the main reasons was the smaller pixel size. So now I can image at f/9 / f13 (depends on the scope) without the need for a Barlow. So that is something else you have to think about: what is the focal ratio you are mainly going to image with? Not much of a help here I guess: I like both the camera's, the one I use depends on the focal ratio.



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Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:34 pm

Hi Alexandra. Like Bart says it is down to the f-ratio you are working at. F10ish you're looking at the ASI290M, f20ish your PGR will work nice, for F30+ then a 174 chipped camera is the way forward.


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Re: What camera?

Post by Carbon60 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:08 pm

It also depends on the wavelength, of course.

CCD critical sampling calculations can be found here www.wilmslowastro.com/software/formulae.htm

The calculation suggests f22 in Ha and f37 in CaK for your 11” f10, Alexandra, using the IMX174 with 5.86um pixels.

To see what this looks like use the FoV calculator www.skyatnightmagazine.com/Astronomy-fi ... calculator

Of course, seeing will be the biggest limit to resolution. :)

Stu.


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Re: What camera?

Post by Montana » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:39 am

Mmmm more confused than ever now, thanks :)

I just need more frames per second than the Grasshopper that has 25fps. However I don't fancy more cost of a tilter and then more fiddling around. I was going to use the 2x and 3x Barlow with the Lunt CaK module as the 3x worked brillant with the white light. I don't have hydrogen alpha at the moment but I want the camera to work with all 3. So everyone is saying that the 174 chip is the same whether it be in the ZWO, PGR or Basler version, it always gives bad rings :(
Alexandra



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Re: What camera?

Post by Carbon60 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:22 pm

Hi Alexandra,

I use the Basler version (acA1920-155um IMX174) to image at both Ha and CaK wavelengths. I have never seen any NRs in CaK using this camera on any of my scopes with any of my Barlows. In the case of Ha I do have to tilt the camera a few degrees on occasion to remove them.


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Re: What camera?

Post by Merlin66 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:52 pm

Alexandra,
With the tilter...when it's installed just takes a minute or so to set it - no NR!
Never have to adjust it again, just leave it in place on the camera.


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Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:19 pm

Montana wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:39 am
Mmmm more confused than ever now, thanks :)

I just need more frames per second than the Grasshopper that has 25fps. However I don't fancy more cost of a tilter and then more fiddling around. I was going to use the 2x and 3x Barlow with the Lunt CaK module as the 3x worked brillant with the white light. I don't have hydrogen alpha at the moment but I want the camera to work with all 3. So everyone is saying that the 174 chip is the same whether it be in the ZWO, PGR or Basler version, it always gives bad rings :(
Alexandra
Basically the bigger the pixel size the longer the f-ratio it works best with. A tilter is pretty much mandatory tbh, and given expenditure it's a fraction of the cost! IMHO the daystar is the best option for a tilter. https://brierleyhillsolar.blogspot.com/ ... rings.html


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Re: What camera?

Post by Merlin66 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:10 pm

Mark,
The ZWO T2 tilter has a built-in light foam seal which stops any light leakage through the tilt gap. No need for gaffa tape etc.


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Re: What camera?

Post by Bob Yoesle » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:36 pm

... you can get this chip in ZWO, PGR and Basler versions, does it make any difference?
Just an FYI,

A couple of years ago I fried my Point Grey Chameleon's sensor when the Baader film filter I made intermittently partially blew off in the wind. Point Grey replaced the entire camera for a standard repair charge of $50 USD. This has earned them my loyalty (in addition to their general overall quality).

I just checked and FLIR has kept this policy in place - repair/replacement costs are based on the camera price, but remain the same and quite favorable, no matter what the cause of failure:
FLIR repair.png
FLIR repair.png (43.78 KiB) Viewed 5000 times
Something to consider...


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Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:42 am

That's useful to know Bob. 👍

The foam gasket is a good idea Ken.


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Re: What camera?

Post by christian viladrich » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:27 pm

Hello Alexandra,
The first question is what is your Ha filter ?
Indeed, the Ha solar filter sets the F/D, which in turn sets the size of the pixel, which in turn sets the sensor.
If your Ha filter need F/30 or more, the short answer is the IMX174. Smaller pixel sizes won't make the job.

In a nutshell, the IMX174 is an excellent all arround sensor (Ha, CaK, white light, Moon) whatever your F/D.

The question of Newton rings is unfortunatly not very predictive. Even for a given sensor type (e.g. IMX174), it depends on the actual sensor you have in the camera. In any case, this is not a big deal, you just have to use a tilting adaptor.


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Re: What camera?

Post by MapleRidge » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:07 am

Hi Alexandra...

Camera choices are full of a lot of trade offs, and all the points and suggested listed cover the topic very well. If you plan to use multiple scopes with significantly different focal lengths it will be hard to have one camera suit all needs.

Based on the C11I can support the 174 chip and have had very good performance with the ZWO version, though the Grasshopper version is likely a bit better if you can justify the extra cost. I have the Daystar tilt unit and it work very well knocking out the NR in Ha. The 174 chip has been used in WL and CaK on the 150mm refractors at f8-f32 and had no issues at all.

The 290 chip is well suited to short focal lengths, but the FOV is tiny on the long focal lengths. Its great for planetary work on the C14 since I don't need any barlows to get the resolution I want and the target is small. For solar it has worked nicely on the smaller scopes (LS80T) or prime focus on the 150mm refractor with no barlows, but I seldom use it. The PGR with the 274 chip for full disk solar and either the PGR or ZWO 174 chipped camera for the longer focal length work. The ZWO1600MM is my camera to get full disk WL/CaK with the 150mm, f8 scope at prime focus.

I think you would be happy with the 174 chip...will have to sort out camera model based on budget and the extra issue with duties and shipping to the UK. I had a camera replaced by PGR when on acted up shortly after I started to use their cameras, so I can second Kens comment.

Brian


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Re: What camera?

Post by Montana » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:19 am

Thanks guys :)

I think I am settling on the 174 chip but I have no idea what hydrogen alpha system I will be using yet. I will also probably go for the ZWO version for cost reasons, a lot of people use them and don't seem to complain and I fancy a change. I have been struggling to get my 2 point grey cameras to work with Firecapture recently and so I don't fancy another to add to the pile ;) I guess I need to buy the tilter too :)

Alexandra



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Re: What camera?

Post by Bob Yoesle » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:30 pm

I have been struggling to get my 2 point grey cameras to work with Firecapture recently and so I don't fancy another to add to the pile...
I recently had the same problem with my PGR Chameleon, downloading the latest SDK fixed this - it might get your current two PGR cameras working again. BTW their customer service has been quite good.

https://www.ptgrey.com/flycapture-sdk


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Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:30 pm

Yup, you need to periodically update the SDK.


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Re: What camera?

Post by GreatAttractor » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:54 pm

Good luck with the setup, Alexandra.
PS here is a piccie of the Celestron with the Aries ERF finally fitted
This is shaping up to be a very interesting season!


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Re: What camera?

Post by Valery » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:49 pm

Montana wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:39 am
So everyone is saying that the 174 chip is the same whether it be in the ZWO, PGR or Basler version, it always gives bad rings :(
Alexandra
Hi Alexandra,

Nice to see that your C11 now is ready for shooting the sun in multibands mode!

BTW. My Basler 1920-155 camera has NEVER showed NR with any of my C11 configurations.

I'd suggest this camera for using with a standard Quark + C11 + 0,7x reducer.

For CaK and G-band I'd suggest the same camera with TV PowerMate 4x at excellent seeing and TV PM 2.5x at average seeing.


Valery


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Re: What camera?

Post by marktownley » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:31 pm

Pete Williamson is selling his ZWO174 Alexandra, i've mentioned your name to him.


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Re: What camera?

Post by Montana » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:13 pm

Oooh!!!!! ta

Alexandra



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Re: What camera?

Post by Valery » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:25 pm

Alexandra, what the H-a filter do you plan to use with the C11 scope?

Valery


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Re: What camera?

Post by Montana » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:59 am

Valery, no idea

Alexandra



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Re: What camera?

Post by Valery » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:43 pm

Montana wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:59 am
Valery, no idea

Alexandra
I would advice to choose a good PST etalon and BF10 filter.


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