Solar Wedges, any data out there?

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Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

Hi all,

Wedges are nothing new. But I'm curious if anyone has good data on them in terms of some of the current options.

Data such as the heat each can take at which apertures for how much time, where the heat is located in the entire optical train, efficiency of the mirror and prism for reflection vs heat dumping, effects of heat on ceramics or other in various builds with respect to internal tube heat or heat build up near the camera sensor / eyepiece as applicable, etc.

I'm also curious if anyone has attempted any real measurements on heat stability and tube currents or general effects of an external full aperture energy rejection filter vs a good wedge on larger refractors (obviously refractor only).

Are there any ranges of wavelengths that are particularly an issue for the mirror/prism in the wedge with respect to aberration?

Is there any kind of meaningful way to compare current solar wedges other than anecdotal report? APM and Altair wedges look identical. Baader looks a little different. Lunt looks a little different. There are others of course, Lacerta with their differing angle for example and some are open where the energy is dumped out of the diagonal towards the ground (instead of into a ceramic plate). Do any really stand out in the pack versus the others or is it mostly just the same thing with no clear leader and all just anecdotal endorsement?

Also curious about the angles involved and the resulting polarization or partial polarization of light with respect to what produces the most real contrast (and why that's the case)?

Thanks!

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Simon2940 »

Problem with doing those tests is you'd have to have several of each units since they are so inconsistent. Dare i say, the Lunt and Baader are really the best 2 out there.
MalVeauX wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:33 pm Hi all,

Wedges are nothing new. But I'm curious if anyone has good data on them in terms of some of the current options.

Data such as the heat each can take at which apertures for how much time, where the heat is located in the entire optical train, efficiency of the mirror and prism for reflection vs heat dumping, effects of heat on ceramics or other in various builds with respect to internal tube heat or heat build up near the camera sensor / eyepiece as applicable, etc.

I'm also curious if anyone has attempted any real measurements on heat stability and tube currents or general effects of an external full aperture energy rejection filter vs a good wedge on larger refractors (obviously refractor only).

Are there any ranges of wavelengths that are particularly an issue for the mirror/prism in the wedge with respect to aberration?

Is there any kind of meaningful way to compare current solar wedges other than anecdotal report? APM and Altair wedges look identical. Baader looks a little different. Lunt looks a little different. There are others of course, Lacerta with their differing angle for example and some are open where the energy is dumped out of the diagonal towards the ground (instead of into a ceramic plate). Do any really stand out in the pack versus the others or is it mostly just the same thing with no clear leader and all just anecdotal endorsement?

Also curious about the angles involved and the resulting polarization or partial polarization of light with respect to what produces the most real contrast (and why that's the case)?

Thanks!

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

Simon2940 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:35 pm Problem with doing those tests is you'd have to have several of each units since they are so inconsistent. Dare i say, the Lunt and Baader are really the best 2 out there.
Can you elaborate how you come to that conclusion? How do you know they're inconsistent?

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Simon2940 »

I work with a lot of the manufacturers on products a lot of the time and have seen, used tested and rejected so many products. Ive gone thru 4 Lunt wedges to get the best one, the Meade versions are hit and miss in terms of build and you certainly cannot drop one as ive seen they dont take a hit very well (then again nothing does), the Baader ones ive only seen 3 and they all been good.

I know the Lunt and Baader handle heat a lot better.

In case you didnt know, i work with Woodland Hills Camera and Telescopes but i am NOT here to sell, promote or push products. I am here as me, not the store.
MalVeauX wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:46 am
Simon2940 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:35 pm Problem with doing those tests is you'd have to have several of each units since they are so inconsistent. Dare i say, the Lunt and Baader are really the best 2 out there.
Can you elaborate how you come to that conclusion? How do you know they're inconsistent?

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

Simon2940 wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:27 am I work with a lot of the manufacturers on products a lot of the time and have seen, used tested and rejected so many products. Ive gone thru 4 Lunt wedges to get the best one, the Meade versions are hit and miss in terms of build and you certainly cannot drop one as ive seen they dont take a hit very well (then again nothing does), the Baader ones ive only seen 3 and they all been good.

I know the Lunt and Baader handle heat a lot better.

In case you didnt know, i work with Woodland Hills Camera and Telescopes but i am NOT here to sell, promote or push products. I am here as me, not the store.
MalVeauX wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:46 am
Simon2940 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:35 pm Problem with doing those tests is you'd have to have several of each units since they are so inconsistent. Dare i say, the Lunt and Baader are really the best 2 out there.
Can you elaborate how you come to that conclusion? How do you know they're inconsistent?

Very best,
Thanks, I appreciate that. And I do respect experience.

Just trying to get metrics or calcs to help put more behind it if possible, if there are any out there. For example, what's inferior about the Lunt wedge vs the superior Baader wedge?

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by marktownley »

Sorry Marty, I can't help here. I have a Lunt wedge, is the only one i've owned, and I rarely do any whitelight anyway...


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Montana »

I have the Baader photographic wedge and I adore it. I am very glad I bought it. I've never owned anything else ;)

Alexandra


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

I'd be very interested to know any actual differences between the Baader and APM wedges for example (Altair's wedge looks exactly like APM's, same measurements and everything, so I assume they're clones?). I wish the Baader didn't come with all the extra stuff, as I don't need doubles of all that. Of course it would be great to know if there's data about any of these, differences in the prism, ceramic properties, etc. I'm curious why Lunt's is cheaper, significantly (where's the compromise).

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

Hello Marty,

Here are some ideas :

1) Regarding "optical quality". There are two factors :
a- Optical quality in terms of overall shape measured in P-V, rms, Strelh ratio, etc. We need some equipment to do this. This service is offered by some companies, but it is expensive. On top on that, given that the wedge is rather close to the focus, the tolerance on the overall shape can be relaxed a little bit.
b- Surface roughness, which determines the level of scattered light.
It is possible to measure this one with some care. You can measure the level of diffuse light at 5 arsec, 10 arcsec, 20 arcsec of the limb. This is very informative. I started measurements comparing Astrosolar, solar wedge and different refractors. But meanwhile I turned on other projects ...

2) About heat dissipation.
There is no heat build up in the prism. Still, problem can occurs with the heat dump or the nose piece. For example, we tested a Baader solar wedge with ceramic on a 435 mm aperture refractor. Temperature of the body rose to 150°C, partly because of the ceramic, partly because to the 2" nosepiece receiving focused sunlight. There was no problem of heating with a 4" solar wedge on the 435 mm f/15 refractor.

3) Regarding polarization, you can find easily the "Fresnel law" describing this on the Internet. I have a figure of this in "Solar Astronomy" (coming soon ..). There is no relation between polarization due to the solar wedge, and contrast in solar images.

4) Regarding optical aberration, tolerances on surface shape decreases when wavelength decreases.

Christian
Last edited by christian viladrich on Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

christian viladrich wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:37 am Hello Marty,

Here are some ideas :

1) Regarding "optical quality". There are two factors :
a- Optical quality in terms of overall shape measured in P-V, rms, Strelh ratio, etc. We need some equipment to do this. This service is offered by some companies, but it is expensive. On top on that, given that the wedge is rather close to the focus, the tolerance on the overall shape can be relaxed a little bit.
b- Surface roughness, which determines the level of scatter light.
It is possible to measure this one with some care. You can measure the level of diffuse light at 5 arsec, 10 arcsec, 20 arcsec of the limb. This is very informative. I started measurements comparing Astrosolar, solar wedge and different refractors. But meanwhile I turned on other projects ...

2) About heat dissipation.
There is no heat build up in the prism. Still, problem can occurs with the heat dump or the nose piece. For example, we tested a Baader solar wedge with ceramic on a 435 aperture refractor. Temperature of the body rose to 150°C, partly because of the ceramic, partly because to the 2" nosepiece receiving focused sunlight.
Thanks Christian,

Do you have any measurements from before available or are they incomplete?

I imagine the massive 435mm aperture would be a significant energy load for nearly anything. I certainly won't be dealing with monstrous apertures like that. I'm mainly interested in 150mm to 200mm maximum apertures with refractors to keep things realistic in terms of my local seeing conditions.

There just seems to be a lot of anecdotal stuff out there on these, and it really just comes down to branding and what someone has (because who has more than one wedge from different manufactures?). Was mainly curious if there's ever been any measurements or means to test heat handling and quality of the optics with the popular wedges and if there's something clearly better than the others.

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

Not quite what was asked, but there is a degree of self-testing of internal temperatures between solar foil and a wedge.
The wedge is favoured by the more expert solar observer/imager. To the point where they are usually seen as superior to solar foil.
Yet foil must keep the interior of the solar OTA very much cooler. Unless the [wedge's] light cone completely avoids the baffles.
There really ought to be a clear winner here. In terms of instrumental, thermal, image agitation. Yet there isn't.
Suggesting that the internal air is not heated by the light cone of an unfiltered refractor fitted with a solar wedge.

Making an air circulating, cooling fan rather pointless. I had plans for a 40mm fan on my 6" H-alpha OTA but haven't yet.
The Baader full aperture D-ERF still passes enough heat to burn my hand at focus.

I haven't directly compared my 2" Lacerta wedge with my 1.25" Lunt in the same instrument.
The Lacerta is only used on my 7" f/12 refractor. The Lunt only on my Vixen 90mm f/11.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

Rusted wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:09 pm Not quite what was asked, but there is a degree of self-testing of internal temperatures between solar foil and a wedge.
The wedge is favoured by the more expert solar observer/imager. To the point where they are usually seen as superior to solar foil.
Yet foil must keep the interior of the solar OTA very much cooler. Unless the [wedge's] light cone completely avoids the baffles.
There really ought to be a clear winner here. In terms of instrumental, thermal, image agitation. Yet there isn't.
Suggesting that the internal air is not heated by the light cone of an unfiltered refractor fitted with a solar wedge.

Making an air circulating, cooling fan rather pointless. I had plans for a 40mm fan on my 6" H-alpha OTA but haven't yet.
The Baader full aperture D-ERF still passes enough heat to burn my hand at focus.

I haven't directly compared my 2" Lacerta wedge with my 1.25" Lunt in the same instrument.
The Lacerta is only used on my 7" f/12 refractor. The Lunt only on my Vixen 90mm f/11.
Thanks,

That does make me wonder more about thermal load and where the energy is in these systems. I'd love to know if a Wedge design on a 150mm refractor doesn't have internal tube thermal issues the way an internal DERF can have and of course, why (as in, does it matter that reflected light is being refocused external from the scope and so you still have a hot spot in front of the OTA?). I'm curious how the heat dump in a wedge effects tube currents and if some designs are simply better than others, or if they get too hot, does the prism start to have issues. I've used a full aperture DERF on a newtonian and the 2nd mirror heated up big time, didn't crack, but heated up to the point where the image was twitching and nervous with the warping from the heat. Most DERFs do still let a lot of energy through at focus, but that's at focus. As long as its offloading most of the IR energy the heat should be less enough to not be a problem. I tend to use two DERFs to complete the blocking, so I use a full aperture DERF and a 2nd sub-aperture DERF so that there's very little heat coming out the back of the OTA (even at focus its minimal and doesn't burn my hand with my not-so-scientific-hand-burn-test). But, I'm curious how a wedge handles heat and if the heat on the ceramics matters for internal tube currents, or if the heat isn't really in the tube because its passing through and dumping out?

Without just making a blanket assumption, I'm very curious if a wedge on a 150mm refractor competes and has similar internal thermal properties that the same 150mm refractor does with a front aperture ERF, for photosphere purposes. If it doesn't, then I don't care to have a wedge. I will have an ERF regardless for higher resolution HA. And I have an 8" DERF already. But I'm curious to expand to a few smaller apertures and targeting a full aperture 150mm option to compliment and I'm curious about a wedge simply because of the freedom to use any wavelength imaging filter in conjunction with it (compared to a DERF that will be more limiting, if made well).

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

The heat sink on a solar wedge is outside the OTA. i.e. Beyond the prism "isolation window."
The housing may get hot by conduction from the heat sink but I haven't checked this.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

Hello Marty,
Just as an side remark, the air inside a refractor is not heated by the flux of light passing through. This is true even for the 4-m DSKT at Hawai.
The solar prism does not absorb any energy. It is transparent. So the solar prism won't heat the air.
However, the nose piece of the solar wedge absorbs energy (if exposed to solar light) as well as the heat dump. So here are the potential source for instrument turbulence.
It means that a full aperture ERF and a solar wedge are equivalent from the instrument turbulence point of view (as long as the noise piece is large enough and the heat dump well designed).

The best view I ever had of the solar granulation was with the 435-mm f/15 refractor and a 4" solar wedge.

I have zero internal turbulence with my TOA-150 and Baader solar wedge (old version without ceramic).


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

Thanks,

That's great information. A 4" wedge? Wow, quite the focuser to accept that thing!

Interesting that the ERF and solar wedge are equivalent for instrument currents. That's more the info I'm seeking mainly anyways as a comparison to see. I favor the idea of a wedge for photosphere simply due to the addition of being able to safely do visual with it, and image moderate to high resolution.

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I have a 2" Altair wedge. It does very well. I am well satisfied with it. It's rated for refractors up to 6 inches.

I have seen many recommendations for the Baader wedge and the Lacerta wedge with it's odd Brewster angle which is said to increase the range of polarization so the wedge has a higher range of brightness control than others. Of course a second polarizing filter can be added to any wedge, if needed.

But the Lacerta wedge would be a neck craner when the sun is high in the sky. That's the main reason I chose the Altair wedge. The normal 90deg angle is far more comfortable when the sun is at a high elevation.

James


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

Thanks,

It sure would be nice to know the quality of the optics in the wedges to help differentiate them. I'm surprised this isn't something old news.

The Altair looks to be a clone of the APM wedge in every single way including location of each detail, other than color of the body. The Baader has a different body design, as does the Lunt. I'm curious what the true differences are.

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by DeepSolar64 »

MalVeauX wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:44 pm Thanks,

It sure would be nice to know the quality of the optics in the wedges to help differentiate them. I'm surprised this isn't something old news.

The Altair looks to be a clone of the APM wedge in every single way including location of each detail, other than color of the body. The Baader has a different body design, as does the Lunt. I'm curious what the true differences are.

Very best,

I noticed the APM and Altair are built the same way too. The Altair averages a little lower in price though. I hope you can find comparative data on different wedges. It's hard to come by. It seems everyone has their favorites for one reason or another.

James


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

DeepSolar64 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:21 pm
MalVeauX wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:44 pm Thanks,

It sure would be nice to know the quality of the optics in the wedges to help differentiate them. I'm surprised this isn't something old news.

The Altair looks to be a clone of the APM wedge in every single way including location of each detail, other than color of the body. The Baader has a different body design, as does the Lunt. I'm curious what the true differences are.

Very best,

I noticed the APM and Altair are built the same way too. The Altair averages a little lower in price though. I hope you can find comparative data on different wedges. It's hard to come by. It seems everyone has their favorites for one reason or another.

James
Indeed,

That is a problem with equipment like this, I would think there would be more data or metrics behind discussion of these things, rather than just anecdotal experiences. I realize having the means to measure these things is not possible for everyone. I just figured around this particular forum there would likely be some folk who do have those means or have the information from elsewhere more probably than some other forums. Too much mystery in general with respect to commercial solar products, despite costing hundreds and thousands. Nighttime astronomy equipment tends to have a lot more information available on them and the higher end stuff comes with reports. I guess solar just kinda goes "guess it is whatever they say it is?"

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

Well, I ended up with a Baader 2" Cool Ceramic Wedge. I got the visual version since the only difference is the extra ND filters they throw in (pfft). Comes with a 2" ND 3.0 and 2" Continuum filter (over the top, don't need these for my purpose). That said, they show that this works with a 8" refractor no problem, so that was what sold me mainly from other options. If it can handle 8" aperture heat, then that's what I'm looking for. While I cannot measure it well, no idea how to even approach measuring it, I was able to at least compare to other methods of blocking heat, and it was very obvious that there was no heat issues with the OTA in my high ambient Florida heat. Visually it was a treat too, just wonderful contrast in my 150mm frac.
Baader_Wedge_06272021.jpg
Baader_Wedge_06272021.jpg (69.23 KiB) Viewed 3173 times
Here's a full disc with 1000mm focal length and IMX253 sensor with continuum filter.
SolarDisc_540nm_Continuum_100mmF10_IMX253_81frames_BW_06272021.jpg
SolarDisc_540nm_Continuum_100mmF10_IMX253_81frames_BW_06272021.jpg (1.27 MiB) Viewed 3173 times
Here's high res with 1944mm focal length and IMX290 sensor with continuum filter.
AR2835_540nm_Continuum_150mmF13_IMX290_81frames_BW_06272021.jpg
AR2835_540nm_Continuum_150mmF13_IMX290_81frames_BW_06272021.jpg (405.29 KiB) Viewed 3173 times
Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Merlin66 »

Marty,
I've used the Baader Cool Herschel wedge for the past 10 years or so with various telescopes.
It's currently on the Genesis 100/500.
I'm sure you will be as happy as me with the quality and performance.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

Very nice Marty,
I am sure you will be happy with it. I use the previous version on my TOA 150.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by MalVeauX »

I got a single day with it, so far. After I received it, Hurricane Elsa appeared. The curse is real.

Very best,


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by RKBerta »

I have the BAADER (now 5 years old) and use with TV-85 APO, A&M 80mm triplet APO (Officina Stellare), and a custom 110mm achromat. I also have a 152mm A&M triplet APO (Officina Stellare) but haven't used it with that although BAADER says it can be used with up to a 8" aperture. I think that would be pushing it. I may add a full aperture ERF for the 152mm scope at one point (costly). The A&M 80mm is spectacular with it though. I also have BAADER AstroSolar fill aperture film filters for all of my scopes. The film works pretty good and better by far than any external glass filters but the BAADER wedge is a far superior image.

Thus far I haven't seen any indication of high heat with the BAADER causing any issues. The diagonal doesn't heat up and the image is very steady and contrasty and sharp. The focus point is actually back past the ceramic filter so outside the diagonal. But no heat dumped externally that could burn you like the original Hershel wedge....that is why the BAADER is called the safety Hershel wedge

The photo package I got includes a few ND filters to match to different apertures but a much more useful trick is to get a polarized ND filter and place on the EP. Since the BAADER is already polarized, by rotating that second filter by rotating the EP you can fine tune the ND over a wide range and get it to your optimum contrast/brightness point.
It also comes with a Solar Continuum filter which is useful for non APO scope but not needed for true APOS generally but it MAY be a benefit to show convection cells a bit better....still trying to see if there is any difference on APOS....nothing yet though. It does color the sun green so if that bothers you it might make the decision easy.
The ceramic filter is separated from he diagonal itself with 4 screws between the filter and diagonal which is vented so any heat is isolated from the diagonal. It doesn't get hot or even warm.
You can also get a K line filter for CaK for use in the BAADER prism but do NOT use for visual....only photographic. CaK is dangerous to view with the human eye. BAADER states that they can't understand why some companies sell CaK setups for visual.....dangerous. I agree!


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by RKBerta »

Sounds like a couple of you are using your BAADER ceramic with 6" and larger scopes up to the 8" max that BAADER states in their user manual. Earlier I was warned by some here that my 6" triplet APO really should have a full aperture ERF. I noted that one of you with the TAK 150 TOA evidently doesn't use a ERF. Would like some more comments on that. If the ERF is not needed that would be great but for now I am keeping it at 110 max aperture.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Montana »

I use the Baader ceramic wedge on a TEC140 for hours with no problem (no front ERF) and I know that Luca does the same on his TEC180 with no problems.

Alexandra


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by RKBerta »

Since I replied to this post....I have used my BAADER cool Hershel Wedge on my 6" triplet APO refractor without any ERF. No issues at all....the tube doesn't heat up and the ceramic is seperated from the diagonal body and with vent holes. After several minutes the diagonal and back is just slightly warm....no scary hot components. BAADER says it is good for up to 8" aperture with no ERF. Havne't tried that yet due to Covid but our club has a 8" D&G achromat refactor so may give it a try. I will say the resolution and contrast with the 6" and the BAADER is amazing. Compared to viewing the same day with my 80mm APO tripet reafractor (both refractors are Officina Stellare) and the same BAADER solar wedge and same eyepieces....the 6" reveals even finer detail...which it should.
If I had a way to insert my thermo probe into the refractors it would answer a lot of questions. short of drilling holes in expensive gear that isn't practical ;-) For time being I just use the "palm" test.
As far as tube currents causing seeing issues....I haven't seen that at all even under very high magification. Just like night time...it helps to let the scope and gear reach ambient temperature. Note that my BAADER is the current model and not the older version which evidently wasn't as efficient at dealing with the heat evidently.

By the way....the ceramic on the BAADER is polarized. If you put an additional polarizing filter on the eyepiece (never on the scope side of the diaognal), you can rotate that polarizer to give variable ND which is really handy for bringing out the most detail.


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Astro Physics 900 and 1100 mounts, Ioptron MINI Tower Pro ALT/AZ mount, ZWO AM5 mount,
Lunt 60mm Ha single stack, Coronado 60mm Ha single stack with BF 30
Day Star Quark Chromosphere
Player One Neptune mono with 178 chip, 256mm DDR, tilt plane for solar imaging
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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by RKBerta »

The main reason I went with BAADER vs. Lunt....I liked the click lock and it had setup to allow Tmount adaptor without issues of insufficient in-focus. It came with a few ND filters to match to different aperture scopes also. I bought it early 2017 and after a lot of use....it is still like new and no issues. Ha is my favorite but white light is wonderful too....although I am still waiting for more larger sun spots to show ;-)


80mm f6 Officina Stellare APO triplet, 152mm Officina Stellare f8 APO triplet, TV 85mm f7 ED APO, 8" SCT HD, 11" SCT.
Astro Physics 900 and 1100 mounts, Ioptron MINI Tower Pro ALT/AZ mount, ZWO AM5 mount,
Lunt 60mm Ha single stack, Coronado 60mm Ha single stack with BF 30
Day Star Quark Chromosphere
Player One Neptune mono with 178 chip, 256mm DDR, tilt plane for solar imaging
ASI 071 Pro cooled color for DS imaging
ATIK 490 EX OSC for DS imaging
SBIG STL 6303e mono with RGBL and Ha, SII, OIII filters for DS imaging
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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

RKBerta wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:58 pm Sounds like a couple of you are using your BAADER ceramic with 6" and larger scopes up to the 8" max that BAADER states in their user manual. Earlier I was warned by some here that my 6" triplet APO really should have a full aperture ERF. I noted that one of you with the TAK 150 TOA evidently doesn't use a ERF. Would like some more comments on that. If the ERF is not needed that would be great but for now I am keeping it at 110 max aperture.
I have been using a Baader solar wedge with my TOA 150 for more than 10 years. There is no problem at all.

As explained above, we also used a home-made solar wedge on a 435 mm aperture refractor. There is no problem at all. One issue is that the free aperture of the wedge should be large enough compared to the solar disk. This means that we used a 4" solar wedge on the 435 mm refractor.
The other issue is how you deal with the unwanted 95% light passing through the prism. The ceramic plate is no longer a valid solution for such large aperture.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

RKBerta wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:39 pm
The photo package I got includes a few ND filters to match to different apertures but a much more useful trick is to get a polarized ND filter and place on the EP. Since the BAADER is already polarized, by rotating that second filter by rotating the EP you can fine tune the ND over a wide range and get it to your optimum contrast/brightness point.
I am not completely sure this is a good/safe solution for visual observation. A lot of polarizing filters are transparent to IR light :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... ing-CV.JPG


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

RKBerta wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:57 pm Note that my BAADER is the current model and not the older version which evidently wasn't as efficient at dealing with the heat evidently.
As a matter of fact, this is the opposite. The older Baader solar wedge (the one without the ceramic) was better at dealing the the heat, since the 95% of unwanting light was passing though the wedge. So the wedge remains cold.

In the current version (the one with the ceramic), some part of the heat is absorbed by the ceramic which increased its temperature. But, the clear benefit of this version is safety since the 95% unwanted light is blocked by the ceramic.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

The "palm test" is hardly accurate and could cause serious burns if wrongly applied. Try one of the remote reading, laser guided, infra-red thermometers instead. They are shaped like a simple, plastic pistol and cost very little these days. As little as £10/$15 equivalent. No doubt the price has come down further due to the global demand for reading forehead temperatures. Mine is one of my favourite toys and cost about £25 equivalent a couple of years ago. I like to monitor building surfaces and equipment to reduce potential thermal issues when imaging.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

I'd like to back-up Chris's idea of using an Infra-Red thermometer as he mentions.

I use one daily for COVID checks indoors and one in the observatory for what requirement including can check the HW etc.
Yes they are very cheap and certainly a useful tool to keep as handy.

Terry


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by SimonM »

Looking at the Wedge pointing down - that seems like a good idea. For visual and imaging, it makes sense to have it pointing up. I can see an advantage if I was to "switch out" the supplied ND and/or Solar Continuum filter and use the additional photographic versions (supplied with my Baader Wedge but so far- not used) e.g. to emphasize that an EP can't be used when the 3.0ND is removed e.g. to use 1.8ND + 0.9ND for imaging etc.

Last January, before getting the Baader Wedge, I was a bit wary of using anything to view the sun especially an EP. I emailed BP for some reassurance (see below). I was hoping that they had a spectrum for the Wedge as it's supplied - seems not.
Dear Simon,

thank you for the comments on our products. Here are the answers to your questions in short in context:

1. Is there a recognized “Standard” for the attenuation of solar radiation which is recognized as being safe for visual use?
2. My understanding is that the Baader Solar Prism is safe to use without an additional UV/IR cut filter. Is that because the design of the Baader Solar Continuum filter changed (the filter is now provided in a slim filter mount) that additionally has almost no out of band transmission of UV/IR?

We would not be able to sell the product for a decade without complying with safety standards. The Herschel Wedge V means "visual", which means it's recommended for visual use. If you want to be super safe then you can add a UV/IR blocker even if generations of astronomers observed with Herschel Wedges without UV/IR blocker - without damaging their eyes

3. Using the Solar Prism as supplied, it has the prism, Baader Solar Continuum filter, and Baader ND 3.0 filter. Is there a chart for the entire Solar Prism showing the attenuation across all wavelengths?

We are sorry we do not offer such a chart

4. The Prism is specified for refractors up to 6” in Aperture. I have a SkyWatcher refractor which has a 100mm aperture. It is f/5.5 and so is considered “fast” compared to a more usual design at f/7. Can I assume that the f/5.5 does not affect the operation of the Solar Prism e.g. the primary operation is to attenuate the light from an aperture e.g. 100mm without concern for the focal ratio - the heat/light “in" relates only to the aperture size?

We would not give the advice (up to 8") on our website if it would not have been tested properly. This Means, if the wedge is recommended for 8" it can be used for 6" without any problem. Because it's logical that it's a matter of the aperture and not about the focal length how much energy comes into focus.

Herschel Wedges are well known to be used for decades without problems as one of the safest methods for solar observation. Nevertheless, you are questioning the technical descriptions, the advice and the details on our website for a product that we sell for more than 10 years in the same kind. We cannot urge somebody to believe us or to trust us - but we ask for your understanding that we cannot discuss every information on our website in every depth. If you still fear using the Herschel wedge it's understandable. Many people fear to look through a telescope to the sun, even with proven filters, and then our advice can only be: If someone is not comfortable with something it is s better not to do it.

Best regards,
Michael Risch
BAADER PLANETARIUM GMBH


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by nfotis »

Hello there,

I ordered my first refractor (SVBONY 102ED/7, plus a 0.8x flattener), so I am starting again to think about a solar wedge (mostly for photography).
Since temperatures in Greece are quite high in the summer, I have thought about the Lacerta 2" wedge, but I don't know if it'll be too much of a handful.
Or is the 1.25" version "cool" enough?

Cheers,
N.F.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

Deleted duplicate post.
Last edited by Rusted on Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

nfotis wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:28 am Hello there,

I ordered my first refractor (SVBONY 102ED/7, plus a 0.8x flattener), so I am starting again to think about a solar wedge (mostly for photography).
Since temperatures in Greece are quite high in the summer, I have thought about the Lacerta 2" wedge, but I don't know if it'll be too much of a handful.
Or is the 1.25" version "cool" enough?

Cheers,
N.F.
The Lacerta 2" wedge is a large and very heavy lump. You may really struggle to balance your telescope and mounting.
Try hanging a similar weight on a string from your focuser eyepiece tube.

The Lacerta's Brewster Angle makes it difficult to use visually at higher solar altitudes.
Bodily rotation of the Lacerta still does not bring the eyepiece to a comfortable viewing position. While a 90° wedge does.

For imaging, the Brewster Angle is not such a problem.
Though I find it gets very hot after hours of following the sun with my 150mm.
It is easy to burn your hand in the exposed, unfiltered, internal beam.
Which can happen if you hold the Lacerta to manually point the telescope.
Not very suitable for public outreach use or anywhere around children. IMO.

A 90° wedge supports your camera. The Lacerta can make it hang down from an upward sloping tube.
I have had cameras slide out of the Lacerta, eyepiece receptacle at high solar altitudes.

I later bought a Lunt 1.25" wedge, for visual use.
I find it beautifully sharp, convenient, safe and very pleasing to use at all solar angles.

P1370526 rsz 700.JPG
P1370526 rsz 700.JPG (76.37 KiB) Viewed 2124 times


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by nfotis »

Thanks for the data, I am thinking for a mostly imaging application.
If even the 2" Lacerta wedge can be getting hot, that doesn't bode well for a 1.25" on my 102mm refractor I guess...

N.F.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

I am talking about 6" & 7" refractors following the sun for many hours without a break.
Most observers and imagers don't do this. I do this and often.

The Brewster Angle is a far more important negative factor in basic usability in my opinion.
For visual use it is a severe handicap to have the eyepiece receptacle pointing downwards.
A small astro video camera has no problem. Just make sure it won't fall out.
A DSLR would need a fully articulated 'flip' screen just to be able to see the image.

I soon began to strongly dislike the Lacerta due to the difficulty of reaching the eyepiece.
I was often trapped against my 3m [10'] Ø observatory wall when using my 7" refractor.
So I gave up on white light visual completely until I finally bought the Lunt 1.25 90°wedge.
A 90°solar wedge can be turned sideways. For perfectly comfortable viewing at any solar altitude.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by nfotis »

By the way, did you notice any difference in visual / imaging quality between the Lacerta/Lunt wedges?
Lacerta claims better contrast due to the use of the Brewster angle in their construction, and that would be quite useful when imaging (I guess).

N.F.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

Added to and agreeing with Chris/Rusted, I have been using the Lunt 1.25mm H.W. through two different 80mm scopes for both visual and imaging purposes, for some years.

Adding a variable-polarizing filter between the H.W./in front of the camera and/or E.P. can assist in dimming and improving the contrast.
Alternatively with your 102, the heat will be considerably diminished by the use of a F-Stopper disk in-front of the objective, which can simulate the use of the variable-polarizing filter and of course both can be used quite safely too.

The benefit of using a H.W. does show granulation and of course those spots - whenever, compared to my glass solar-filter or Baadar film in front of the objective of course...

As Baadar have advised you directly, H.W.'s have been in use for many-years by the various manufacturers too and I'm sure that safety-margins would have been taken in stressing the aperture-limits of usage. Certainly for long-time/hours, they can get hot, but that is part of the purpose and as Baadar explain, not really suitable for outreach or child-usage...

Also as Chris correctly explained, that hanging cameras or even heavy E.P's (especially when the E.P. holder is not vertical) could cause a drop to the ground of valuable assets, so all my scopes and accessories/cameras have light-weight cords attached from the main scope - in case...
(There's usually/always some screw-knob or barrel to attach the safety-cord to)...

I trust that helps

Terry


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