Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Use this section to discuss "standard" Baader/Coronado/ Lunt SolarView/ Daystar, etc… filters, cameras and scopes. No mods, just questions/ answers and reviews.
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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Montana »

I use the Baader ceramic wedge on a TEC140 for hours with no problem (no front ERF) and I know that Luca does the same on his TEC180 with no problems.

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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by RKBerta »

Since I replied to this post....I have used my BAADER cool Hershel Wedge on my 6" triplet APO refractor without any ERF. No issues at all....the tube doesn't heat up and the ceramic is seperated from the diagonal body and with vent holes. After several minutes the diagonal and back is just slightly warm....no scary hot components. BAADER says it is good for up to 8" aperture with no ERF. Havne't tried that yet due to Covid but our club has a 8" D&G achromat refactor so may give it a try. I will say the resolution and contrast with the 6" and the BAADER is amazing. Compared to viewing the same day with my 80mm APO tripet reafractor (both refractors are Officina Stellare) and the same BAADER solar wedge and same eyepieces....the 6" reveals even finer detail...which it should.
If I had a way to insert my thermo probe into the refractors it would answer a lot of questions. short of drilling holes in expensive gear that isn't practical ;-) For time being I just use the "palm" test.
As far as tube currents causing seeing issues....I haven't seen that at all even under very high magification. Just like night time...it helps to let the scope and gear reach ambient temperature. Note that my BAADER is the current model and not the older version which evidently wasn't as efficient at dealing with the heat evidently.

By the way....the ceramic on the BAADER is polarized. If you put an additional polarizing filter on the eyepiece (never on the scope side of the diaognal), you can rotate that polarizer to give variable ND which is really handy for bringing out the most detail.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by RKBerta »

The main reason I went with BAADER vs. Lunt....I liked the click lock and it had setup to allow Tmount adaptor without issues of insufficient in-focus. It came with a few ND filters to match to different aperture scopes also. I bought it early 2017 and after a lot of use....it is still like new and no issues. Ha is my favorite but white light is wonderful too....although I am still waiting for more larger sun spots to show ;-)


80mm f6 Officina Stellare APO triplet, 152mm Officina Stellare f8 APO triplet, TV 85mm f7 ED APO, 8" SCT HD, 11" SCT.
Astro Physics 900 and 1100 mounts, Ioptron MINI Tower Pro ALT/AZ mount, ZWO AM5 mount,
Lunt 60mm Ha single stack, Coronado 60mm Ha single stack with BF 30
Day Star Quark Chromosphere
Player One Neptune mono with 178 chip, 256mm DDR, tilt plane for solar imaging
ASI 071 Pro cooled color for DS imaging
ATIK 490 EX OSC for DS imaging
SBIG STL 6303e mono with RGBL and Ha, SII, OIII filters for DS imaging
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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

RKBerta wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:58 pm Sounds like a couple of you are using your BAADER ceramic with 6" and larger scopes up to the 8" max that BAADER states in their user manual. Earlier I was warned by some here that my 6" triplet APO really should have a full aperture ERF. I noted that one of you with the TAK 150 TOA evidently doesn't use a ERF. Would like some more comments on that. If the ERF is not needed that would be great but for now I am keeping it at 110 max aperture.
I have been using a Baader solar wedge with my TOA 150 for more than 10 years. There is no problem at all.

As explained above, we also used a home-made solar wedge on a 435 mm aperture refractor. There is no problem at all. One issue is that the free aperture of the wedge should be large enough compared to the solar disk. This means that we used a 4" solar wedge on the 435 mm refractor.
The other issue is how you deal with the unwanted 95% light passing through the prism. The ceramic plate is no longer a valid solution for such large aperture.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

RKBerta wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:39 pm
The photo package I got includes a few ND filters to match to different apertures but a much more useful trick is to get a polarized ND filter and place on the EP. Since the BAADER is already polarized, by rotating that second filter by rotating the EP you can fine tune the ND over a wide range and get it to your optimum contrast/brightness point.
I am not completely sure this is a good/safe solution for visual observation. A lot of polarizing filters are transparent to IR light :
http://astrosurf.com/viladrich/astro/in ... ing-CV.JPG


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by christian viladrich »

RKBerta wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:57 pm Note that my BAADER is the current model and not the older version which evidently wasn't as efficient at dealing with the heat evidently.
As a matter of fact, this is the opposite. The older Baader solar wedge (the one without the ceramic) was better at dealing the the heat, since the 95% of unwanting light was passing though the wedge. So the wedge remains cold.

In the current version (the one with the ceramic), some part of the heat is absorbed by the ceramic which increased its temperature. But, the clear benefit of this version is safety since the 95% unwanted light is blocked by the ceramic.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

The "palm test" is hardly accurate and could cause serious burns if wrongly applied. Try one of the remote reading, laser guided, infra-red thermometers instead. They are shaped like a simple, plastic pistol and cost very little these days. As little as £10/$15 equivalent. No doubt the price has come down further due to the global demand for reading forehead temperatures. Mine is one of my favourite toys and cost about £25 equivalent a couple of years ago. I like to monitor building surfaces and equipment to reduce potential thermal issues when imaging.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

I'd like to back-up Chris's idea of using an Infra-Red thermometer as he mentions.

I use one daily for COVID checks indoors and one in the observatory for what requirement including can check the HW etc.
Yes they are very cheap and certainly a useful tool to keep as handy.

Terry


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by SimonM »

Looking at the Wedge pointing down - that seems like a good idea. For visual and imaging, it makes sense to have it pointing up. I can see an advantage if I was to "switch out" the supplied ND and/or Solar Continuum filter and use the additional photographic versions (supplied with my Baader Wedge but so far- not used) e.g. to emphasize that an EP can't be used when the 3.0ND is removed e.g. to use 1.8ND + 0.9ND for imaging etc.

Last January, before getting the Baader Wedge, I was a bit wary of using anything to view the sun especially an EP. I emailed BP for some reassurance (see below). I was hoping that they had a spectrum for the Wedge as it's supplied - seems not.
Dear Simon,

thank you for the comments on our products. Here are the answers to your questions in short in context:

1. Is there a recognized “Standard” for the attenuation of solar radiation which is recognized as being safe for visual use?
2. My understanding is that the Baader Solar Prism is safe to use without an additional UV/IR cut filter. Is that because the design of the Baader Solar Continuum filter changed (the filter is now provided in a slim filter mount) that additionally has almost no out of band transmission of UV/IR?

We would not be able to sell the product for a decade without complying with safety standards. The Herschel Wedge V means "visual", which means it's recommended for visual use. If you want to be super safe then you can add a UV/IR blocker even if generations of astronomers observed with Herschel Wedges without UV/IR blocker - without damaging their eyes

3. Using the Solar Prism as supplied, it has the prism, Baader Solar Continuum filter, and Baader ND 3.0 filter. Is there a chart for the entire Solar Prism showing the attenuation across all wavelengths?

We are sorry we do not offer such a chart

4. The Prism is specified for refractors up to 6” in Aperture. I have a SkyWatcher refractor which has a 100mm aperture. It is f/5.5 and so is considered “fast” compared to a more usual design at f/7. Can I assume that the f/5.5 does not affect the operation of the Solar Prism e.g. the primary operation is to attenuate the light from an aperture e.g. 100mm without concern for the focal ratio - the heat/light “in" relates only to the aperture size?

We would not give the advice (up to 8") on our website if it would not have been tested properly. This Means, if the wedge is recommended for 8" it can be used for 6" without any problem. Because it's logical that it's a matter of the aperture and not about the focal length how much energy comes into focus.

Herschel Wedges are well known to be used for decades without problems as one of the safest methods for solar observation. Nevertheless, you are questioning the technical descriptions, the advice and the details on our website for a product that we sell for more than 10 years in the same kind. We cannot urge somebody to believe us or to trust us - but we ask for your understanding that we cannot discuss every information on our website in every depth. If you still fear using the Herschel wedge it's understandable. Many people fear to look through a telescope to the sun, even with proven filters, and then our advice can only be: If someone is not comfortable with something it is s better not to do it.

Best regards,
Michael Risch
BAADER PLANETARIUM GMBH


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by nfotis »

Hello there,

I ordered my first refractor (SVBONY 102ED/7, plus a 0.8x flattener), so I am starting again to think about a solar wedge (mostly for photography).
Since temperatures in Greece are quite high in the summer, I have thought about the Lacerta 2" wedge, but I don't know if it'll be too much of a handful.
Or is the 1.25" version "cool" enough?

Cheers,
N.F.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

Deleted duplicate post.
Last edited by Rusted on Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

nfotis wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:28 am Hello there,

I ordered my first refractor (SVBONY 102ED/7, plus a 0.8x flattener), so I am starting again to think about a solar wedge (mostly for photography).
Since temperatures in Greece are quite high in the summer, I have thought about the Lacerta 2" wedge, but I don't know if it'll be too much of a handful.
Or is the 1.25" version "cool" enough?

Cheers,
N.F.
The Lacerta 2" wedge is a large and very heavy lump. You may really struggle to balance your telescope and mounting.
Try hanging a similar weight on a string from your focuser eyepiece tube.

The Lacerta's Brewster Angle makes it difficult to use visually at higher solar altitudes.
Bodily rotation of the Lacerta still does not bring the eyepiece to a comfortable viewing position. While a 90° wedge does.

For imaging, the Brewster Angle is not such a problem.
Though I find it gets very hot after hours of following the sun with my 150mm.
It is easy to burn your hand in the exposed, unfiltered, internal beam.
Which can happen if you hold the Lacerta to manually point the telescope.
Not very suitable for public outreach use or anywhere around children. IMO.

A 90° wedge supports your camera. The Lacerta can make it hang down from an upward sloping tube.
I have had cameras slide out of the Lacerta, eyepiece receptacle at high solar altitudes.

I later bought a Lunt 1.25" wedge, for visual use.
I find it beautifully sharp, convenient, safe and very pleasing to use at all solar angles.

P1370526 rsz 700.JPG
P1370526 rsz 700.JPG (76.37 KiB) Viewed 2126 times


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by nfotis »

Thanks for the data, I am thinking for a mostly imaging application.
If even the 2" Lacerta wedge can be getting hot, that doesn't bode well for a 1.25" on my 102mm refractor I guess...

N.F.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by Rusted »

I am talking about 6" & 7" refractors following the sun for many hours without a break.
Most observers and imagers don't do this. I do this and often.

The Brewster Angle is a far more important negative factor in basic usability in my opinion.
For visual use it is a severe handicap to have the eyepiece receptacle pointing downwards.
A small astro video camera has no problem. Just make sure it won't fall out.
A DSLR would need a fully articulated 'flip' screen just to be able to see the image.

I soon began to strongly dislike the Lacerta due to the difficulty of reaching the eyepiece.
I was often trapped against my 3m [10'] Ø observatory wall when using my 7" refractor.
So I gave up on white light visual completely until I finally bought the Lunt 1.25 90°wedge.
A 90°solar wedge can be turned sideways. For perfectly comfortable viewing at any solar altitude.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by nfotis »

By the way, did you notice any difference in visual / imaging quality between the Lacerta/Lunt wedges?
Lacerta claims better contrast due to the use of the Brewster angle in their construction, and that would be quite useful when imaging (I guess).

N.F.


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Re: Solar Wedges, any data out there?

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

Added to and agreeing with Chris/Rusted, I have been using the Lunt 1.25mm H.W. through two different 80mm scopes for both visual and imaging purposes, for some years.

Adding a variable-polarizing filter between the H.W./in front of the camera and/or E.P. can assist in dimming and improving the contrast.
Alternatively with your 102, the heat will be considerably diminished by the use of a F-Stopper disk in-front of the objective, which can simulate the use of the variable-polarizing filter and of course both can be used quite safely too.

The benefit of using a H.W. does show granulation and of course those spots - whenever, compared to my glass solar-filter or Baadar film in front of the objective of course...

As Baadar have advised you directly, H.W.'s have been in use for many-years by the various manufacturers too and I'm sure that safety-margins would have been taken in stressing the aperture-limits of usage. Certainly for long-time/hours, they can get hot, but that is part of the purpose and as Baadar explain, not really suitable for outreach or child-usage...

Also as Chris correctly explained, that hanging cameras or even heavy E.P's (especially when the E.P. holder is not vertical) could cause a drop to the ground of valuable assets, so all my scopes and accessories/cameras have light-weight cords attached from the main scope - in case...
(There's usually/always some screw-knob or barrel to attach the safety-cord to)...

I trust that helps

Terry


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