Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

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Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by MAURITS »

Can I use the Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall star diagonal with 1/10 lambda surface for Ha solar observing an imaging without trouble in combination with a Quark or Solar Spectrum?

I ask this because my setup is now straight away but the room in my observatory is relatively small, when I get a 2" diagonal than I have more room between the camera and the wall.

I read somewhere that the BBHS-Sitall in the train could give problem's in solar Ha.
2 Extensions - Quark.jpg
2 Extensions - Quark.jpg (830.31 KiB) Viewed 3467 times


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by marktownley »

What are the problems you read of?

I see no issue...


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by MAURITS »

I found the below conclusion about a Solar Spectrum filter and the silver coats diagonal.

http://www.stern-fan.de/Seiten/zubehoer ... ctrum.html
Last edited by MAURITS on Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:27 am, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by MAURITS »

Conclusion about the Solar Spectrum filter used with a dielectric silver coats.
See :Care should be taken when choosing ( last part) ...


Conclusion:
In a direct comparison with the Coronado SM90 system I used earlier , the free opening of which was limited to 90mm due to the design, you notice a significant increase in resolution. The full 140mm opening of the TEC can now be used. The increase in resolution at the fine spicules at the edge of the sun is particularly noticeable.
The surface details appear even more contrasty because the half-width of the solar spectrum filter is only 0.5 Å (Coronado SM90: 0.7 Å).

Advantages of the Solar Spectrum 0.5 Å ASO:
- Relatively high magnification of details possible
- Free opening almost unlimited, thus high resolution
- Stable filtering through precise temperature control
- Etalon filter is more robust against mechanical shocks

Disadvantages:
- 230V mains connection necessary for heating control
- telecentric necessary - resulting in high system focal
length (here 3920 mm) - long structure behind the focuser - everything must be very stable
- the sun does not fit completely into the field of view

Tips:
There are many different models of Solar Spectrum Filters available.
The differences essentially consist of:
- Free passage (19 mm - 46 mm)
- Half width (0.8 Å - 0.2 Å)
- Quality of the filter (Research Grade or Standard)

In my experience, a half width of 0.5 Å is the ideal compromise between image brightness and contrast performance on the solar surface. Smaller half-widths visually show an image that is even richer in contrast, but at the expense of the image brightness and thus at the expense of the exposure times for video recordings. I would choose the free passage as large as possible when using a binocular approach.
Everyone has to decide for themselves whether the financially significant additional expenditure justifies a "Research Grade" filter. I did not notice any noticeable irregularities in the image with my standard grade filter.

Care should be taken when choosing the star diagonal: In an experiment, I found that a high-quality, dielectric star diagonal does not work with the solar filter. Protuberances could still be guessed at, but the sun's surface lost almost all structure.
The use of a centiprism, however, did not affect the imaging performance.
It is probably due to the dielectric coating of the mirror. Possibly simpler mirrors work better without expensive compensation.
But since you rarely have a comparison of what the surface can look like with your own solar filter, I think it is advisable to use a star diagonal in any case.


Technical data:
Manufacturer: Solar Spectrum, purchase eg from Baader Planetarium
Device name: Solar Spectrum 0.5 Å Advanced Solar Observer
Free opening Etalon filter: 32 mm
Half width: 0.5 Å +/- 0.05 Å
Energy protection filter : 160 mm D-ERF from Baader Planetarium
Telecentric: 4-fold (also 2-fold available)
Reducer: 0.66x
total price (H-alpha filter, D-ERF, telecentric + accessories): approx. EUR 8700,


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by marktownley »

Interesting article Maurits!


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by SolarHans »

Hi Maurits,
In my own search for information to get the best solar-scope components for my budget, I also found the article you mentioned.
I had the same question so I follow this topic with interest.

The author says that a high-quality, dielectric star diagonal does not work with the solar filter.

But which diagonal did he use?

In https://www.baader-planetarium.com/en/d ... _and_2.pdf several diagonals are described.

The Dielectrical Mirror Diagonals
Reflects only the visual part of the spectrum (400-700 nm), so that no UV- or IR-radiation will reach the eye. This provides higher security when observing the Sun through white-light or H-alpha solar filters.
and:
BBHS® Mirror Diagonals
Provides greatest reflectance over large spectral range from 390 to 2000 nm
BBHS® = Broadband Hardsilver coating with dielectric protective overcoating
Perfect for visual and photographic observations with best brilliance, even in the infrared part of the spectrum

Maybe the author was using the first type of diagonal? Then the problem was caused by the limited spectral range?
For imaging the BBHS diagonals might be better because of the larger spectral range?

I was thinking to choose the T-2 / 90° Prism Diagonal with BBHS® Coating (a prism, so not the mirror . for shorter optical path).
(but I am a newbie on h-alpha observing so for what it is worth)

Regards,
Hans


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by MAURITS »

SolarHans wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:00 pm Hi Maurits,
In my own search for information to get the best solar-scope components for my budget, I also found the article you mentioned.
I had the same question so I follow this topic with interest.

The author says that a high-quality, dielectric star diagonal does not work with the solar filter.

But which diagonal did he use?
Hallo Hans,
The above author let us not exactly know what diagonal he used.

I saw another article here on this forum with below beautiful and clear images from his setup.
Here you can easily see the Baader 2" Maxbright diagonal 2406210 (140 layers coating).

http://www.amun-ra.org/equipment.asp


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by Grakrob778 »

Very concerning and interesting topic considering I am waiting for a Solar Spectrum filter to arrive. I found an image on Baader's site showing the use of their 2 inch Clickstop #2956100
https://www.baader-planetarium.com/en/s ... ndium.html

I bought this Clickstop part. Also, I measured the reflectance intensity of a halogen bulb with my spectrometer and here are the preliminary results:
spectrum baader dielectric.png
spectrum baader dielectric.png (41.55 KiB) Viewed 3368 times
Here is the image of the #2956100 being used:
baader-m68-tele-compendium-60f.jpg
baader-m68-tele-compendium-60f.jpg (360.58 KiB) Viewed 3368 times

I guess I will have to purchase a BBHS product and compare myself.


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by RKBerta »

I have a Hutech, Astro Physics and BAADER BBHS sital 2" diagonals. I found that with my particular setup the bit extra back focus with the click stop wouldn't quite reach focus with some eyepieces so was using the AP amd after seeing the note from BAADER below I may have been lucky! Alarmingly I later found a post from BAADER that warned to NOT use the BBHS with Ha setups! While the BBHS passes more frequencies (radiation) and that gives superior views for planetary and DS viewing over regular diagonals, BAADER said that it passes harmful radiation that is not filtered out by the Ha setups.
Here is the email from BAADER I saw:
================================================================
DO NOT USE BADDER BBHS DIAGONAL
WITH Ha systems…use regular diagonal only!!

Can I use a UV / IR blocking filter and / or the BBHS mirror before an H-alpha or calcium approach? Do you recommend the 2 "BBHS or the 2" ClickLock star diagonal?
-74
Question by: Enrique V. on 10/14/2016 9:41:00 AM | 1 answer (s)
For observing the sun in H-alpha in combination with a suitable filter combination, we recommend the normal, dielectric Clicklock mirror, because below 380nm and above 740nm it conveys significantly less radiation into the eyepiece than the BBHS star diagonal. The star diagonal thus significantly reduces the load on downstream filters. Please always use a suitable energy protection filter in front of the lens in order to keep the strain on the filter as low as possible.

We strongly advise against visual observation of the sun through a calcium filter - the 397nm of the calcium line are in the UV; It is known that UV radiation can trigger photoxic reactions in the eye and lead to eye damage. In addition, even young people have only a low sensitivity to these wavelengths, which decreases even further with age. Therefore, the eye does not notice that the intensity is far too high. If you want to increase the intensity (for example with a different zenith mirror) in order to see a brighter picture, the risk of eye damage increases. According to the latest standards for eye safety and ophthalmological findings, the sun must not be visually observed at 397 nm.

We urgently recommend observing the sun in calcium only photographically, then no zenith mirror is necessary. We cannot understand why some manufacturers offer calcium filters for visual solar observation.

We also advise against placing a filter close to the focal point - an energy protection filter should be placed in front of the lens, even if high demands are placed on the optical quality of a large filter. A filter close to the focus saves money because it can be made much smaller, but we absolutely cannot recommend it - both because of our own conscience and because of EU regulations. The filter absorbs all of the energy that the lens collects - and could break at any time. For technical as well as ethical reasons, we can only recommend a dielectric energy protection filter in front of the lens.
Answer by: Baader Web Team (Admin) on 10/14/2016 9:43:00 AM


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by Grakrob778 »

I know this is regarding the sital but it's basically all the same with respect to the silver coatings. So I ordered a Zeiss spec BBHS prism this afternoon. Reading all this really makes me think Baader can't guarantee a completely safe view through our systems but if you think about it we have an ERF up front, can add a UV/IR cut before the Halpha system which in the SS contains blockers and an ITF so I highly doubt any harmful light would get through. It's possible though. I will either use a Ha 35nm or UV/IR cut as a secondary internal ERF just in case, but I will be comparing the clickstop dielectric mirror to the BBHS prism to see if there is any difference in surface detail. Kinda doesn't make sense, but he didn't mention what brand of dielectric. And I notice he doesn't post anything new in some time. I wonder if he lost interest.


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by SolarHans »

Grakrob778 wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:57 am but I will be comparing the clickstop dielectric mirror to the BBHS prism to see if there is any difference in surface detail.
If you ever do this comparison it would be great to hear the results!

Sofar the above article is the only one that I can find that mentions that "a high-quality, dielectric star diagonal does not work with the solar filter".

About the Baader safety-warning:
Solar observing can be very dangerous when you do it the wrong way, so we should be carefull, but when the BBHS-prism is placed behind the full size D-Baader ERF and behind the Solar Spectrum H-alpha filter I expect only
light with a frequency of 656.28 nm +/- 0.5 nm will pass.
So not much harmfull IR of UV will be left. Or am I overlooking something? Did someone make measurements on this?


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by MAURITS »

So if I can conclude the only save diagonal for Ha viewing with a Solar Spectrum filter is an regular dielectric mirror diagonal such as the Baader T2 Maxbright (BA2456100)😉.

What is than the story for Ha imaging with a diagonal ...???


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by Grakrob778 »

If none else tries I will when everything arrives. Still waiting on my filter from SS.


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by MAURITS »

Thanks all for the effort ...👍


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by marktownley »

Interesting info guys.


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by Dennis »

Im using a baader t2 bbhs mirror diagonal with my quark setup in a 150mm f/8 refractor with front d-erf and have no problems.
Before that i asked baader if this combination is problematic, but they replied that there is no problem.

The bbhs is no dielectric. Instead of reducing the contrast it is maintaining it as good as possible with a mirror diagonal i would say (scatter).

Also i found this interesting piece of information from the sundancer 2 manual:
sundancer.PNG
sundancer.PNG (490.25 KiB) Viewed 2741 times
translated with deepl:

In principle, the SunDancer II can be used with any telescope that is
suitable for solar projection.
When using a D-ERF energy protection filter, catadioptric systems can be used,
as well as Newtonian telescopesto a suitable aperture ratio.
Make sure that the secondary mirror does not cause any additional
obstruction and mount the D-ERF off-center.
The focus position when using the 2" sleeve corresponds approximately to that with a normal eyepiece.
On most telescopes, a zenith mirror is necessary for comfortable viewing.
Mirrors are preferable to prisms because the sunlight does not pass through the glass of the prism and heat it up. For best quality we recommend the Baader BBHS ® zenith mirrors with Astro-Sitall mirror material (glass ceramic with
Zero expansion coefficient) and 1/10 l surface finish.
You can use both 1¼" and 2" zenith mirrors; the mirror must be compulsorily
be mounted in front of the SunDancer.


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by Dennis »

the results with the bbhs mirror diagonal look ok to me:
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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by Dennis »

But would i use this setup with bbhs mirror diagonal for visual observing despite the full size D-ERF + Quark blocking filter? That remains another question.


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by BGazing »

Surprised to read some of the posts. I use my BBHS almost exclusively (not the full 2 inch version), both with and without frontal DERF in two telescopes with a Quark. Not sure what is the safety issue as there's still blocking filter and etalon after the diagonal...


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by christian viladrich »

MAURITS wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:13 pm I found the below conclusion about a Solar Spectrum filter and the silver coats diagonal.

http://www.stern-fan.de/Seiten/zubehoer ... ctrum.html
Hello Maurits,

Who is the author of this paper ?

On my side, the sweet spot is my SolarSpectrum RG 0.3 A, even for prominences ;-)

This being said, it is difficult to understand why there could be an issue with a BBHS diagonal. The light transmited by the Ha filter is only Ha. The diagonal reflect some percentage of it (say 95%). So what ?
Any issue would be about light scattered by the diagonal because of the larger number of layers. But this would also appears in "normal" observing conditions (planets, Moo, etc.). Very strange ...


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by christian viladrich »

christian viladrich wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:10 pm
MAURITS wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:13 pm I found the below conclusion about a Solar Spectrum filter and the silver coats diagonal.

http://www.stern-fan.de/Seiten/zubehoer ... ctrum.html
Hello Maurits,

Who is the author of this paper ?

On my side, the sweet spot is my SolarSpectrum RG 0.3 A, even for prominences ;-)

This being said, it is difficult to understand why there could be an issue with a BBHS diagonal. The light transmited by the Ha filter is only Ha. The diagonal reflect some percentage of it (say 95%). So what ?
Any issue would be about light scattered by the diagonal because of bad optical quality. But this would also appears in "normal" observing conditions (planets, Moo, etc.). Very strange ...


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by Dennis »

Yes i agree, it shouldnt be a problem. There is a D-ERF and a blocking filter. Never the less im a bit paranoid when it comes to eyesafety.
German Angst.. :mrgreen: :lol:


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by marktownley »

BGazing wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:54 pm Surprised to read some of the posts. I use my BBHS almost exclusively (not the full 2 inch version), both with and without frontal DERF in two telescopes with a Quark. Not sure what is the safety issue as there's still blocking filter and etalon after the diagonal...
Thanks and welcome to the forum! What scope are you using it with?


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Re: Baader 2 "BBHS-Sitall

Post by BGazing »

marktownley wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:07 am
BGazing wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:54 pm Surprised to read some of the posts. I use my BBHS almost exclusively (not the full 2 inch version), both with and without frontal DERF in two telescopes with a Quark. Not sure what is the safety issue as there's still blocking filter and etalon after the diagonal...
Thanks and welcome to the forum! What scope are you using it with?
Thank you for the welcome! :)
I use it with a Tak 100 DF and Borg 71FL.
It is a very nifty diagonal, much better on planets than a standard Baader dielectric, even in C8.


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