what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

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what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by Florin Andrei »

I know we're at a solar minimum right now.

This is the stack I'm testing:
- ED80 (D=80mm, F=600mm, f/7.5)
- 2" Baader UV-IR cut filter (should allow H-alpha, transmission range is 420 – 680 nm)
- Baader 3x telecentric
- Quark Combo (no embedded barlow), the chromosphere version
- cheap diagonal and eyepiece

The ED80 is stopped down to D=60mm. So the Quark receives a cone of light at f/30.

On the ED80 I have the upgraded 2-speed focuser. I also use the 2" Baader ClickLock clamp, which is very solid. I've done DSO imaging with the ED80 before and it seems to perform well for that case.

All connectors between components (from ED80 to Quark) are as short as possible, and always threaded, as opposed to friction-based (except for the ClickLock).

I did a visual test today, and I only saw one little spot, which is visible in white light as well. Other than that, no structure - the Sun looked like a smooth red ball. Focus was reasonably sharp, judging from the edge of the Sun. I've explored most of the range of the tuning knob on the Quark, always waiting for the green light to come on.

One aggravating factor was the eyepiece. I have a bunch of short eyepieces (useless for solar), but very few that are long. I tried the 1.25" Explore Scientific 82deg 14mm with the 0.5x GSO reducer, but it was still too short - the Sun was huge and dim. I tried the 2" GSO 50mm, and the magnification looked better, but that eyepiece is pretty bad, has issues with eye relief and is generally hard to use.

So, is that normal? No structure visible nowadays in the eyepiece? Am I doing something wrong? Anything else to try?

It's pretty clear I need better eyepieces with a long focal length. I'm thinking of the TeleVue Plossl at 40mm, or the 32mm with the 0.5x GSO, unless someone has a better idea. Again, I operate at D=60mm, F=1800mm, f/30, and I'm looking to maximize contrast for now.

I will try imaging with a planetary camera, perhaps the sensor will see detail that my eye doesn't. I also need to finish exploring the whole range on the tuning knob, I only swept 3/4 before the Sun plunged behind a house.


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

I can't comment on the overall remarks you have made, except perhaps and as you say about trying some imaging through whatever camera you have and then posting the result here with telling us what camera is used.

The "small" spot you mentioned is not really small, rather, dark medium to large sized, as of today.

Good idea to look at some of the posted images here of AR2794 and its' one spot (at present) as well as looking at say the SDO website to see what is visible etc., with up-to-date images shown as:- https://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/ which will then give you an idea of what to aim for - especially if you are having short viewing sessions with a low-down Sun...

Others will no doubt tell you more, especially where you are using a Quark Combo - which I don't have...

Cheers
Terry


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Florin,
Visually I don't think it matters what type of Ha setup you use. It's job is to show as much detail possible at that wavelength. It doesn't matter whether it's a DayStar Quark, A Coronado SolarMax 60 or a Lunt LS60tha. What matters is that it can reveal the details clearly and accurately to you visually. I guess my best advice to you is to check out my posts and those of Andrew ( AndiesHandyHandies ). We are the two main visual observers who posts our visual observations to SolarChat. Many others here do visually observe but they seem to primarily be imagers and concentrate on that aspect of solar astronomy. Our posts should give you an idea what you should be able to see visually in an Ha scope.

Another thing. Don't use too high a magnification. It tends to dim the image too much and if the seeing doesn't allow it that will make it worse. You certainly need some longer focal length low powered eyepieces. I usually use my SolarMax II 60 at low power. 16x to 33x. Only if there are bright features like a bright prominence or the seeing is really good will I use 50x on it. My SMII 90 is bigger so it does better at higher magnifications, seeing permitting. So get you some eyepieces between 16mm and 27mm. This should help.

Also seeing in hydrogen-alpha takes some time to learn. Your eye is not as sensitive to it's red light it as it would be if it was green or yellow. Use a guide image like GONG and practice.

Two examples.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30031

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30042


Andrew uses a bigger scope though. I use both a 60 and 90mm scope for my Ha observations.

I hope this helps.

James


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by Montana »

Hi Florin,

It sounds very frustrating what you are experiencing. The above posts are top advice. The problem is that you have no idea which dial settings you need to be on to start with. My thoughts would be to check GONG http://halpha.nso.edu/ and look for the most up to date image. Use that as a baseline. If you see lots of dark features like filaments on one particular area of the solar disc, then concentrate on that area to test your dial settings. At one point these dark features should become visible to your eyes. They should get darker and darker then start getting fainter again. The point where it is darkest is the dial setting you should stick with for most of the time. If you see nothing like what is featured on GONG then something is wrong. You should easily see something sort of similar to GONG.

Let us know how you get on. Also remember to cover your head with a dark cloth so that your eyes stay adjusted to the light in the eyepiece.

Alexandra


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by EGRAY_OBSERVATORY »

If I can underline what Alexandra has just said, for eye-adaption techniques :-

"Also remember to cover your head with a dark cloth so that your eyes stay adjusted to the light in the eyepiece. "

Very important for the two-lines of light but especially White Light...

At least to keep one-eye closed/covered and the other in the EP waiting for at least 30-seconds for that eye-adjustment...

Terry


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by DeepSolar64 »

I wear a wide-brimmed hat to shade my eyes. A dark cloth over the head and scope would probably be better. I have thought about buying one of those aluminized ones. A black cloth in summer would be terribly hot!


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by marktownley »

Hi Florin.

I'd echo what the others would say about Gong. With the Quarks you're looking at ~20mm effective field stop and this can affect choice of eyepieces. I would keep it simple and go for 32mm and 25mm plosll type.

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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by Florin Andrei »

Thanks everyone!

I actually got the hat part... uh... covered (bad pun). Rocking an old, faded Stetson while observing, because why not? :) Honestly I did not expect eye adaptation to be an issue with solar observations, but now I get it.

I will explore a range of low magnifications using decent eyepieces. I will soon be able to do 22x and 45x with the H-alpha stack, if that sounds reasonable for an aperture of 60mm.

That strong telecentric ahead of the Quark Combo did not have a match in my eyepiece collection. But that will be fixed soon.

And now of course it's cloudy so I'll wait until the weather gets better.


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by DeepSolar64 »

Keep your magnification low, especially in doublestack. When you start seeing details wash out back off on the magnification.


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by Florin Andrei »

Ok, I'm probably doing something wrong. All I see is a smooth red ping-pong ball. No details. If there are any sunspots (right now there aren't any, but I've seen some in the past few weeks), I see them quite well. The edge is sharp enough. Basically, everything I see in the 50mm viewfinder which is equipped with a Baader solar film, I also see in the big scope, except it looks red.

I've done visual observations and even imaging before, in white light, during eclipses and the transit of Venus. I was able to capture enough detail and even some granulation in the camera. I'm new to H-alpha but not new to astronomy in general. Here's the total eclipse captured with this ED80 a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLHTk69nC4

This is the H-alpha system I've built this winter:
halpha-stack.jpg
halpha-stack.jpg (513.37 KiB) Viewed 739 times
  • Orion ED80 with a 60mm iris in front (not seen in the image) to keep f-ratio at f/30
  • Moonlite 2.5" focuser - fresh install, replacing the original Orion focuser (it was time to upgrade anyway)
  • Baader UV/IR cut filter (allows 656.28nm)
  • Baader 3x telecentric (threaded into the focuser using a custom T adapter - no smooth bore couplings, it's all threaded)
  • DayStar Quark Combo Chromosphere threaded into the telecentric (a 1.25" camera nosepiece installed backward serves as a T adapter)
  • cheap diagonal
  • GSO 0.5x focal reducer
  • bunch of 1.25" extension tubes calculated to have the focal reducer actually operate at exactly 0.5x
  • TeleVue Plossl 40mm
The Quark receives a cone of light at f/30 (D=60mm, F=1800mm). The reducer cuts that down to F=900mm. The magnification at the eyepiece is 22.5x.

I moved the tuning knob on the Quark through the whole range, tested every step. I always wait for the LED to turn green before I observe, which always takes a few minutes after each adjustment. Not a hint of detail anywhere that cannot be attributed to white light.

I've replaced the diagonal and the eyepiece with a 0.8x reducer and an APS-C camera, and I don't get any H-alpha detail there either - but I didn't try the whole range on the Quark tuning knob, only the center. I've captured 1000 frames and stacked them. These are the first 10 frames:

https://florinandrei-astrophoto.s3-us-w ... detail.zip

The Quark is new, I bought it a couple months ago from an online astronomy shop.

Any suggestions? What should I try next?

Since I have no experience with hydrogen alpha, I don't know what to expect. Is the Sun so quiet these days that no details are visible for visual observations in a small aperture?


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Andrei

It does sound like your quark is not working, not uncommon I had to return my first one.
The setup looks ok but I am not sure about the telecentric position, it does seem a long way forward of the quark.
No need for the GSO reducer before the 40mm plossl as you will just vignette the eyepiece.
couple of questions.
Is the suns image bright?
Can you see the spicules around the edge of the sun and any prom detail?

Rod


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by marktownley »

Like Rod says, stop using the 0.5x reducer, just use the 40mm, 32mm or 25mm plossl. The graphic below shows what you would see using TV plossls.
astronomy_tools_fov (8).png
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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by Florin Andrei »

RodAstro wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:30 pm It does sound like your quark is not working, not uncommon I had to return my first one.
I see. Yeah, I was not sure what to expect in terms of failure rate. I'll have to talk to DayStar directly, as the 30 day warranty from the reseller is gone.
The setup looks ok but I am not sure about the telecentric position, it does seem a long way forward of the quark.
I know I could shorten that by maybe 10mm. I've removed the 1.25" barrel (short, silvery) from the Quark. Under the barrel, the Quark has a "snout" pointing out that way, containing a filter that looks very reflective (some kind of internal ERF I guess). At the base of the snout there's a 1.25" filter thread (male).

The telecentric has a 2" thread on that side. I use a 2" to T-thread adapter there. Then a 1.25" nosepiece installed backwards is threaded into the T-thread on the telecentric and the 1.25" filter thread on the base of the snout on the Quark. The nosepiece is 28mm long. I could use a nosepiece that's several mm shorter. If it's much shorter, the Quark's snout will bump into the lens on the telecentric.

There's no vignetting anywhere, but the clearance is not huge, maybe 20% the diameter on each side. With tracking, this is not a problem.

There's quite a bit of diffuse light all over the image, more than I expected, but maybe this is normal with H-alpha etalons. It's also visible in the camera. I think it should not hide any details, except those that are very low contrast.
Is the suns image bright?
At 22.5x it's fairly bright. Less bright than the white light image in the 50mm finderscope equipped with the Baader solar film, but not much darker.

Without the reducer it's quite dim and low contrast. I doubt I could see details if they were not high contrast (like sunspots). But really I'm only guessing, since my experience with H-alpha is zero.
Can you see the spicules around the edge of the sun and any prom detail?
In terms of details and features, it's identical to the white light image in every way, except for the color. No H-alpha features whatsoever.

I have not tested this a lot, so I'm speaking from memory, but I believe the image looks identical even when the Quark does not receive power. It's like a regular red glass filter.
marktownley wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:36 pm Like Rod says, stop using the 0.5x reducer, just use the 40mm, 32mm or 25mm plossl. The graphic below shows what you would see using TV plossls.
So, I tried that. It's pretty dim. Since I could never see any details, I thought maybe there was not enough contrast (like when you use high magnification on Jupiter), so I lowered the magnification. But there's no detail at low magnification either.


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Andrei

It does sound like the quark unit is not working, no heating, just like my first one.
Also quarks are renowned for very dark background, so that is disturbing, only one I have seen with a bright background is a prominence one that gives very bright views of the proms and still some chromosphere detail.
It seems like time to contact Daystar.

Rod


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by marktownley »

Yup, sadly this sounds like (another :( ) poorly performing Quark.

Like Rod says, contact Daystar. Good luck :(


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by Florin Andrei »

Thanks so much, everyone, now I know what to do.

One more detail, not sure how relevant. After I built the whole system, all joints from scope to Quark are threaded and rock-solid (and, when the camera replaces the eyepiece + diagonal, all connections are threaded everywhere, period), I grabbed the back end of the camera and very gently wiggled it a bit up/down/left/right (I was careful to not use too much leverage). To my surprise, there was a bit of wiggle in the stack, maybe a few mm slack at the camera.

Upon inspection, the loose part was the Quark itself, it's an internal issue. It's between the main body (the red cylinder) and the forward-facing black ring (which then continues with the 1.25" barrel towards the scope). Those two parts (main body, and ring) are not firmly attached to each other. There's a loose connection in there, inside. It's a tiny amount, but it becomes noticeable at the camera. It's definitely big enough to cause dozens of pixels of image shift (on a big 5k resolution APS-C sensor). But because the stack is pre-tensioned by gravity, no image shift should occur in practice.

Still, it doesn't seem right that those parts are loose like that. I did not try to fix it, due to all the warnings on the DayStar site against tampering with the etalon - so I thought it's best to leave it alone, I just took notice of the issue.

In the eyepiece, there's something that clips the image before the field stop - it's a smaller diameter than the field stop. I believe that must be the Quark itself, some internal ring, and that's probably normal. But, whatever that is, it's not concentric with the eyepiece field stop, it's skewed a bit to one side, maybe by 15% of the field stop diameter. It seems to move a bit relative to the Plossl field stop if I move the diagonal sideways (due to the slack inside the Quark).

All in all, there seems to be some issue within the Quark. The unit was sold to me as a new item by a 3rd party, but now I wonder if it's perhaps an incompletely inspected returned item.

Anyway, no matter, I'll open the conversation with DayStar. Thanks again!


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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by RodAstro »

Hi Andrei

Yep that slop between the red etalon housing is annoying it seems to be on every quark, lucky if you have one without it.
The red etalon housing is threaded to the front black part, the black part has a series of threaded holes around the large thread for the anti tamper locking screw. The red etalon housing is threaded on until it is tight then backed off to the nearest hole for the lock screw, the screw is added and tightened locking the two units in place but this means most of the time the main thread is then loose. It is annoying with a binocular head as the extra weight causes it to flex a lot, I have taken the lock screw out and just keep the main threads tight. It's about a one in sixteen chance of getting a tight Quark, see the photo of my telecentric part.
The ring you talk about is normally central and as far I know is the housing of the etalon unit, it maybe yours has had some rough handling during delivery and the etalon has moved this may be why it seems not to be working, it is all very delicate in there.

Cheers Rod
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Re: what should I expect to observe visually these days? (H-alpha)

Post by Florin Andrei »

Problem solved.

Looks like the unit had some issue, maybe it was damaged in shipping, who knows. Anyway, DayStar fixed it under warranty.

Now I see granulation all over the disk, a small spot on one side surrounded by bright areas, a long thin dark line in the middle of the disc, and various prominences around the edge, of all shapes. It's at low activity, so there aren't that many big features, but the filter definitely works. The background is very dark.

Thanks everyone for your help!


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