2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

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2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by H-Alpha »

Hi all,

I had one hour and half today and tried to make an animation in WL. I captured for 1h, but while capturing I realized that the image quality was degrading, so I kept only the first 35 min.

It is once more a question mark for me why I had this quality degradation... If you observe the SSM data of seeing below with all the captures (blue colour represents the capturing period and red dots represent the timing of the best frame of each capture according to PIPP quality index) the seeing was -theoretically at least- worst o not better in the beginning of the animation, when I got the best captures!
2021-7-6, SSM data.jpg
2021-7-6, SSM data.jpg (1013.46 KiB) Viewed 487 times
Certainly this was not due to changing focusing point either, because after the end of the animation captures I refocused twice and made a couple of captures with no better results.

I can see as possible explanation the heating of the optical tube or the heating of the camera? Could the second be true? Have you observed something similar? I have not covered my scope with anti-reflective material yet and I think I should. However, while capturing the scope is not exposed directly to the sun... Isn't it? And then if I let it out for a while to get the exterior temperature, then if heating is the problem, I may miss even the first good quality image period. :-(
Any idea or advice is very welcome as always.

Let's pass to the pleasant part! :-)
All with Lunt130MT, Baader Wedge, ASI290MM, ZEISS Abbe Barlow 2.2x, Baader Continuum and UV/IR cut filters (+N.D 0.9)

A clear, good quality image minutes after starting the captures. PLEASE open in new tab.
2021-7-6, AR12839 in WL, 16_42_30 B&W.jpg
2021-7-6, AR12839 in WL, 16_42_30 B&W.jpg (1.25 MiB) Viewed 487 times
2021-7-6, AR12839 in WL, 16_42_30 Sepia.jpg
2021-7-6, AR12839 in WL, 16_42_30 Sepia.jpg (1.83 MiB) Viewed 487 times
2021-7-6, AR12839 in WL, 16_42_30 Colour.jpg
2021-7-6, AR12839 in WL, 16_42_30 Colour.jpg (2.16 MiB) Viewed 487 times




And the animation first cropped to see the granules bigger...
(35 min, 35 frames)
Image2021-7-6, Animation of AR12839 WL, 35 min, 35 frames, 16_37_25 cropped by H- Alpha, on Flickr

...and then as full frame.
Image2021-7-6, Animation of AR12839 WL, 35 min, 35 frames, 16_37_25 by H- Alpha, on Flickr



Although I have no knowledge at all on the subject, my impression from the animation is that in a period of 35 min NO perceivable change in the granule structure can be observed. The 'boiling' effect looks to me to be due to seeing AND to change of brightness of some granules. Is this correct?

--> CORRECTION: Looking again and again at the cropped animation, it now seems to me that some are evolving quite a lot, but others (the majority) do not change during the animation. Grrrrr! I need a longer CLEAR animation... ;-)

Perhaps tomorrow with no Jetstream above me and hopefully much better seeing, I may have the luxury to try one last WL animation before letting the scope sleep for a while until I meet it again after my come back.

Best wishes,
Alexandros


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by MAURITS »

A great presentation Alexandros.


Regards,
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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by Carbon60 »

Great animation, Alexandros. It can be so frustrating when the conditions don't cooperate. Your video calls into question the reliability of using SSM data to properly assess the likely quality of images based on seeing. I guess it's really only a guide as there are so many other variables, as you suggest.

I do think there's quite a lot of movement there. Individual granules only last a few minutes (typically about 5-20 minutes), so you'll see some granules evolving more rapidly than others over the course of your 35 minute animation. I think the 'trick' with granular animation is to get the cadence correct so that there are more frames in total that help capture more of the short-lived convection cells. This is something I'd like to experiment with myself if ever we get to see the Sun again here. Recently I learned that AS!3 allows a long video file to be sliced into smaller chunks (using the Expand function), so it's possible to take maybe a single (say 10 minute) AVI and then slice this into 30 x 20 second (or 60 x 10 second, or whatever you want) segments that can be batch processed to create a smooth animation. Maybe something to consider.

Stu.


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by Montana »

I think this is fantastic!! everywhere I look I see the granules changing and evolving, it is not static. The only difficulty is the fuzzy frames. WL animations are hard, this is why you don't see them that often.

I usually take quick 500 frame avi and start the next immediately so that you get a rapid animation. Even 10 minutes of this will show evolution of the granules. Stuart's suggestion of the expand function is definitely a feature I will look at in future. The hardest thing to get is good quality seeing. I gave up on the SSM, don't get hung up about it, use your nose. You can smell when the seeing is good, early morning, over cool vegetation, everything is still apart from a gentle breeze which wafts away the ground heat. That's the time to solar image, get to know your area and when everything will be good.

Alexandra


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by rigel123 »

Those shots and the animation are great Alexandros! Your seeing hardly ever dropped below 1 arc second so I’m not surprised you had some challenges at that resolution level, but you still managed to capture some very sharp moments. Unless seeing is about perfect it is so difficult to get an animation that doesn’t appear to go in and out of focus. Great effort here.


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by GreatAttractor »

Very good result, Alexandros.

The granules definitely do "boil" on short time scales!

I had a few days of excellent seeing back in 2012; you can compare with this time lapse (Mak 180):
Image


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by H-Alpha »

Thank you all so much Maurits, Stu, Alexandra, Warren, Filip!
Carbon60 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:43 am Your video calls into question the reliability of using SSM data to properly assess the likely quality of images based on seeing. I guess it's really only a guide as there are so many other variables, as you suggest.

I do think there's quite a lot of movement there. Individual granules only last a few minutes (typically about 5-20 minutes), so you'll see some granules evolving more rapidly than others over the course of your 35 minute animation. I think the 'trick' with granular animation is to get the cadence correct so that there are more frames in total that help capture more of the short-lived convection cells. This is something I'd like to experiment with myself if ever we get to see the Sun again here. Recently I learned that AS!3 allows a long video file to be sliced into smaller chunks (using the Expand function), so it's possible to take maybe a single (say 10 minute) AVI and then slice this into 30 x 20 second (or 60 x 10 second, or whatever you want) segments that can be batch processed to create a smooth animation. Maybe something to consider.

Stu.
Many thanks for all your three points Stu! With my short experience, I find your words regarding SSM data very rightly summarizing the situation. Thanks for info on granules. Asap I will try a new WL animation following your useful advice. Excellent news about AS!3. --> I tried to experiment just a bit with the EXPAND function, with no success. i don't understand what the parameters are and where the results were saved after a long process... Did not find them. Have you tried it experimentally to see how it works?
Montana wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:59 am I usually take quick 500 frame avi and start the next immediately so that you get a rapid animation. Even 10 minutes of this will show evolution of the granules.

You can smell when the seeing is good, early morning, over cool vegetation, everything is still apart from a gentle breeze which wafts away the ground heat. That's the time to solar image, get to know your area and when everything will be good.

Alexandra
Thanks a lot Alexandra! I will try the next WL animation as you propose. It will be easier to find a short excellent seeing period rather than a long one. I have started to know (for the first semester of the year) when the good seeing is, but early morning is not an option for me, since I have no vie of the sun. Only the second half of the day I have a visual contact.
rigel123 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:43 am Your seeing hardly ever dropped below 1 arc second so I’m not surprised you had some challenges at that resolution level, but you still managed to capture some very sharp moments. Unless seeing is about perfect it is so difficult to get an animation that doesn’t appear to go in and out of focus. Great effort here.
Thanks a lot Warren! You are right! I realized that during this captures as well as in previous animation. More effort is needed! ;-)
GreatAttractor wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:20 pm Very good result, Alexandros.

The granules definitely do "boil" on short time scales!

I had a few days of excellent seeing back in 2012; you can compare with this time lapse (Mak 180):
Image
Woooooowwwwwwww!!!!!!!! And many thanks GreatAttractor-Filip! (I hope the name is right... ;-) )
Did you hear my never expressed wish???
I was thinking to ask in my post people if they could indicate a link of a good WL animation with clearly evolving granules, but it wasn't needed! You heard the wish anyway and sent the best I have ever seen so far and with full details! I loved it a lot!!! It is fantastic, the least I can say!

Although your frames were spaced 4 min apart, the evolution of everything is so well visible. I was amazed by the umbra and penumbra movement!!!! Since I started I wanted to know if in WL they evolve fast enough for movement to be captured by amateurs. It was you, who first let me know about the penumbral waves in one of my H-alpha animations about one month ago..., and I was so excited about them! Now you showed me the Umbra and penumbra movement in WL. Your animation apart being stunning is a great inspiration and challenge for me! Will definitely try something similar (although very very difficult to reach the quality of your video) in the near future. I will even try to go to the mountains to capture something like this!
Thanks once more!

Thanks and best wishes to all,
Alexandros


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by GreatAttractor »

I'm glad you like it; I was in turn inspired by these from the Dutch Open Telescope: https://robrutten.nl/dot/dotweb/dot-alb ... album.html

I haven't done much WL imaging in recent years, and the cleanest granule animation I have since then is this one from Mak 127 (1 img/1.5 min):
Image

I definitely need to capture another one at D=200 mm, this time with very small intervals.


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by eroel »

Alexandros:
Liked the still shots and as for the animations, I do not know how to make them. so I can not say anithing.
Best regards,
Eric.


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by pedro »

Fantastic HR images and animations Alexandros


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by Stardust5858 »

Great captures Alexandros, thanks for sharing.


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by H-Alpha »

Thanks a lot Filip, Eric, Pedro, Nigella for your kind words!
I am glad you liked them.
Will try to further improve them with better conditions.

GreatAttractor wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:10 pm I'm glad you like it; I was in turn inspired by these from the Dutch Open Telescope: https://robrutten.nl/dot/dotweb/dot-alb ... album.html

I haven't done much WL imaging in recent years, and the cleanest granule animation I have since then is this one from Mak 127 (1 img/1.5 min)... I definitely need to capture another one at D=200 mm, this time with very small intervals.
Filip thanks so much for this link of the DOT. Incredible animations at very High Res...!!!!!!!!! I did not know about this Dutch scope in La Palma. Fantastic! I already had a look at your album and you very high quality work on WL! I liked everything. You definitely have to return to WL when you conditions give you the opportunity for your 200mm!!!
eroel wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:07 pm Alexandros:
Liked the still shots and as for the animations, I do not know how to make them. so I can not say anything.
Best regards,
Eric.
Thanks dear Eric. If you ever wish to try animations which are so funny to make and nice to watch, happy to provide help if needed with the few things I have learned so far!

Best wishes,
Alexandros


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Re: 2021-7-4, 35 min Animation of WL granulation around AR12839, Barlow 2.2x

Post by Martin_S »

Great animations Alexandros, thanks for sharing them.

Martin


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