Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

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Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by p_zetner » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:35 pm

Greetings Everyone.

I thought I would add some information about the latest telecentric lens I've designed for use with a C8 Edge. The telecentric magnification is about 4.4 with a (design) field angle of 0.012 degrees. My design goals were to keep the lens train as short as possible and use off the shelf lenses, with a preference for achromatic doublets. I also wanted to use as high a telecentric magnification as possible to fully optimize the operation of the Daystar filter. I have analyzed designs up to 8x magnification. The calculations of Christian Vladrich (http://www.astrosurf.com/viladrich/astr ... lar/FP.htm) show that it is not unreasonable to aim for focal ratios of around 50 (implying a magnification of 50/10.27= 4.9x for the C8). Focal reduction after the H alpha filter would then be used. I have found that, after focal reduction to give my design goal of f25 to f35 at the camera, the final image becomes progressively more subject to vignetting (by the filter), the higher the telecentric magnification. Consequently, I used 4.4x for an acceptable degree of vignetting which can be removed by flat-fielding. For a focal reducer, I use a simple system of two closely-spaced achromatic doublets of 300mm focal length each to achieve focal ratios at the camera of f24 to f36 (corresponding focal reductions of 0.43x to 0.29x). The focal reducer's operating demagnification is simply determined by fixing the image distance to the camera to the required value.

My first images taken with this system can be found here on the forum:

download/file.php?id=32513

download/file.php?id=32614


The first figure below shows a WinLens analysis of the telecentric lens. It is a 4-element design comprising 40mm diameter achromatic doublets from Edmund Optics (-80mmf and 120mmf) and Prazisionsoptiken.eu (eBay) (-120mmf). The optical prescription for the C8 Edge scope comes from the website of Vladimir Sacek, "Notes on Amateur Telescope Optics" (http://www.telescope-optics.net/index.htm). The Daystar filter is modelled as a BK7 window of clear aperture 31.75mm and thickness 23mm, as specified in the Daystar QPE white paper. The spot pattern shows the performance of the lens (and C8 system) to be diffraction limited. My studies of the properties of this lens show that it maintains the design focal ratio and a high degree of telecentricity (field angle ~0.01) as well as diffraction limited performance over a very wide range of image distances.
C8 Edge Scope_200mmf10 - Telecentric EO - m80-m120-m120-120-f46.png
C8 Edge Scope_200mmf10 - Telecentric EO - m80-m120-m120-120-f46.png (97 KiB) Viewed 891 times
The second figure shows the lens assembly. The lens holders are from Edmund Optics, eBay and Surplus Shed. The first three (negative) lenses are held inside a 2 inch extender for the CHL focuser, rigidly threaded onto the focuser. The mechanical design is quite rigid with no flexure that I can determine. In this picture, F'o is the design location of the C8 focal plane required by the lens. BF is the physical (optimal back focus) location of the C8 focal plane. By focusing the C8 mirror with the mirror control and fine focusing with the CHL, the design focal point and the physical back focus are brought into alignment near the optimal C8 back focus.
C8 Edge Scope_200mmf10 - Telecentric EO - m80-m120-m120-120-f46 assy view2.png
C8 Edge Scope_200mmf10 - Telecentric EO - m80-m120-m120-120-f46 assy view2.png (139.04 KiB) Viewed 891 times
Finally, a photograph of the system is shown below. The distance from A (back surface of the telescope) to B (front flange of the Daystar) is 25cm. Beyond the Daystar is a 50mm T-thread extension with 2 inch adapter. The two lenses comprising the focal reducer (Prazisionsoptiken.eu, 300mmf) are held inside a 2 inch OD tube which smoothly slides into the 2 inch adapter (allowing easy rotation for image framing). The assembly beyond the Daystar is quite light in this configuration. The 50mm T-thread extension is not strictly necessary. It's meant as a "place holder" for a Lunt LS50Ha filter which I have tried (so far unsuccessfully!!) to stack with the Daystar.
IMG_2734_edit.png
IMG_2734_edit.png (1.34 MiB) Viewed 891 times
The system in the field:
download/file.php?id=32515

One thing that bothers me is my inability to come up with a way to bench test the telecentricity of the system. Has anyone come up with a procedure for this?


Hope this was informative and useful.
Cheers, Peter.

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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by DJD » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:13 am

Peter,
thanks for your reply on the other thread. Together with this posting it has been very educational ( and useful ).
Best wishes,
David
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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by Merrill55 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:41 pm

How does the method of the heat of the primary mirror-proof reach?

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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by marktownley » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:44 am

Missed this one! Great information, thanks Peter.
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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by p_zetner » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:44 am

Hi David and Mark. Glad you found this informative.

Merrill55: The system uses an Aries front-mounted ERF.

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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by rsfoto » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:21 pm

Hi Peter,

Very interesting. If I compare my setup with a TeleVue 4X Powermate and your telecentric I wonder why is your camera that far away behind the Quantum ?

Is a Powermate a different optical design then a Telecentric ? What is better for our purposes ?

Here an image where my camera is located for a focused image. Much shorter then your arrangement.

Thanks and regards Rainer
IMG_3865_C1.jpg
IMG_3865_C1.jpg (1.4 MiB) Viewed 549 times
regards Rainer

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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by Bob Yoesle » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:36 pm

HI Peter,

Thanks for your excellent work on this :-)

I have a favor to ask you - any chance you could work up a similar corrector for the original (non-HD) C8? I'm also considering modifying an original (non-HD) C8 with a re-spaced corrector ( https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/4417 ... corrector/ ), which might be more akin to the HD for the telecentric design you have come up with. Any chance you could evaluate this as well?

Lastly, just another thought. Since the field we are imaging is small to begin with (with possibly less concern for field angle magnification and "sweet spot" issues than one normally considers), and both collimator and telecentric systems appear closely related, would not a collimator based system be a little bit simpler to implement, and through an appropriately selected refocusing lens FL, eliminate the need for a focal reducer as discussed for the long FR telecentric system? From http://www.pbase.com/p_zetner/opticsdesign1
Telecentric v collimator design.jpg
Telecentric v collimator design.jpg (45.91 KiB) Viewed 409 times
Just thinking out loud, so ignore me if I'm out in the weeds on this, but it seems it may also be mechanically a bit more compact/stable, especially if contemplating etalons in tandem (double stacked)...?
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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by p_zetner » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:59 pm

Hi Bob.

Here is an analysis of my ~ 4.5X telecentric used with a "classic" (non-Edge) C8 scope. The scope model comes from Ed Moreno and is attributed to Ken Hutchinson. The performance at f46 looks to be diffraction limited for hydrogen alpha and a sensor diagonal of 14mm. I've also introduced a focal reducer for operation at f24. This also looks to be pretty much diffraction limited (same sensor size).
C8 classic - Hutchinson Moreno 200mmf10 - Telecentric EO - m80-m120-m120-120-f46.png
C8 classic - Hutchinson Moreno 200mmf10 - Telecentric EO - m80-m120-m120-120-f46.png (94.3 KiB) Viewed 268 times
C8 classic - Hutchinson Moreno 200mmf10 - Telecentric EO - m80-m120-m120-120-f46 FR 300-300 f24.png
C8 classic - Hutchinson Moreno 200mmf10 - Telecentric EO - m80-m120-m120-120-f46 FR 300-300 f24.png (102.93 KiB) Viewed 268 times
With regard to your thoughts about putting a filter in a collimated vs a telecentric field, I agree that the field angle can be kept small for a small field of view. However, as soon as you introduce a re-imaging lens, field angles become large at the filter for reasonable sensor sizes (on the order of 2 degrees, depending on sensor size, collimator and re-imager focal lengths of course). A 1.9 degree field angle corresponds to an on-axis, f30 light cone. The diagram shows the basic geometric optics relation between sensor size (half diagonal, r), field angle (u') in the collimated beam and the (solar) field of view (angle 2u). The collimator and objective basically form a Galilean telescope of angular magnification gamma, given by the formula in the figure. If you set a max acceptable field angle, u', in the collimated beam, this determines the ratio of sensor size to camera focal length. The solar field of view (2u) is then determined by the ratio of objective to collimator focal lengths.
collimator geometry.png
collimator geometry.png (52.45 KiB) Viewed 268 times
I've modelled a few possibilites using a negative collimator. My philosophy has been to make the focal length of the collimator as large as possible (negative) to introduce the least amount of angular magnification in the collimated beam. None of the designs I played with looked good to me so, unless I stumble on to something workable, I won't really pursue the collimator approach much further. That being said, I do use this approach (almost) in the optics configuration for my Lunt CaK etalon with Stellarvue 115mm f7 triplet! The etalon is placed in a field of f51 with image angle of 1.22 degrees for an object angle of 0.12 degrees. Here is diagram of the optics.
115mmf7  - Telecentric EOv3 - uv - layout.png
115mmf7 - Telecentric EOv3 - uv - layout.png (18.49 KiB) Viewed 268 times
Cheers.
Peter

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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by marktownley » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:24 pm

Thanks for the info Peter!
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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by Carbon60 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:52 pm

Excellent information, Peter.

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Re: Details of a telecentric lens for C8 Edge and Daystar filter

Post by Bob Yoesle » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:12 am

Greatly appreciated Peter!

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